Killing Aikido techniques

Randy asks:
>
> I'm just a 5th kyu so please excuse my ignorance. I have heard other
> references to how Aikido techniques could kill and don't understand.
> I can see how the techniques can cause great pain or even break/dislocate
> joints, but I don't see how they can kill. Could someone give me an
> example? Does this refer to some set of advanced techniques (choke holds,
> perhaps?) that are generally only taught to yudansha or are they something
> specific to aikijujutsu?
>
There are at least two responses to your question (probably lots more). But one: a lot of Aikido exposes uke's openings to strikes at pressure points that, I am told, can be fatal. Depending on who your teacher is, he/she probably doesn't spend any time pointing them out to you now; you've got enough to think about as it is!

And two: look at something you're familiar with, such as shomenuchi iriminage (probably on your 5th kyu test). Examine that arm that cuts back across uke's shoulder/neck area and cuts down to the mat. What if you *didn't* gently curve it down, but instead seized your own wrist with the other hand and applied pressure to uke's neck at the same time you stepped in strongly with your hip. What would happen to uke's neck?

Scary, huh?

--Jeff Frane

Subject: Re: techniques that can kill??

There are at least two responses to your question (probably lots more). <pressure point deiscussion delelted>

And two: look at something you're familiar with, such as shomenuchi iriminage (probably on your 5th kyu test). Examine that arm that cuts back across uke's shoulder/neck area and cuts down to the mat. What if you *didn't* gently curve it down, but instead seized your own wrist with the other hand and applied pressure to uke's neck at the same time you stepped in strongly with your hip. What would happen to uke's neck?

This is a nice example of how a technique can be changed to become lethal (ugh!). There are also plenty of examples of how doing a basic technique correctly can be lethal.

Consider the same technique (shomenuchi iriminage). If done full strength and speed against someone they end up flying backwards head first. In a dojo we don't do this to beginners because it is too dangerous, but watch two advanced students sometime (or your instructor and her/his favorite uke). Advanced students know how to take safe ukemi from this, or even receive nage's power so well that they can do a back roll out of it (right, Julian? :-) They are also landing on a mat.

Do this to your common street attacker and they are likely to land head first on cement. I think being thrown down very hard on your head onto concrete qualifies as "potentially lethal". (Didn't W.C. Fields once say "Of course I OK. How can being thrown and landing on your head in the middle of the street hurt someone?" or words to that effect.)

I know some schools tend not to do iriminage this way. Consider instead kotegaeshi, or shihonage. All these can make uke land head first and thus I would say they are "potentially lethal".

--Michael

Subject: Re: techniques that can kill??

SOME Aikido techniques have been documented to be killers. Iriminage and a form of Shiognage have both caused deaths in Japanese Universities. Apparently thge deaths occurred during un-supervised practice by young men who desparately wanted to see if these techniques "really worked". Well guess what - when someone is rushing at you with all their strength trying to smash your face or split your head with a wooden sword an arm placed around the attackers neck and then directed towards the ground MIGHT just be reasonably expected to drop someone so hard on their back that a neck or spine or skull might break - and it HAS. Go figure.

We stress in our classes that this stuff was modified from techniques that were SUPPOSED to kill - aikijutsu. Modify as you will you cannot redefine essential rules of kinesiology and physics. We need to work at not hurting more than we need to figure out how to hurt.

You 2nd question deals with aikijutsu. In the styles that I have studied there are two primary ways of accomplishing a killing move. The first is to direct an opponents head/neck to the ground as hard and fast as you can - it doesn't matter whether the head smashes on the front or back - just that it smashes. Necks are also good places to focus force - and you add the lateral dimensions easily with neck techniques so its not just front or back.

The second method in aikijutsu is to use strikes - primarily shuto or blows from the side of the palm but good ole palm thrusts can work too.

If the evolution of our techniques from killing ones seems vague look at what you do when you perform Ikkajo (Ikkyu). After you bring a person to their knee (in Yoshinkan style) you cross step in towards the armpit of uke and put pressure down the arm towards their shoulder - towards the ground. Well ... if that were in Samurai days and you were on a battlefield your opponent would likely have had a rimmed helmet on - when pressure is placed correctly on the arm and the opponent is directed forcefully to the ground the rim of that helmet will very often dig in to the ground and snap a person's neck - if that didn't do it then you're in a greta position to kick in the side of the person's head or snap their arm, or or or the variations are many. Aikido came from a VERY efficient method of killing - and the techniques can - and I feel - should still be seen for what they could accomplish in a combat situation the gift O Sensei bequeathed to us was the realization that that was not our ONLY alternative - usually.

Chris Howey

Subject: Re: techniques that can kill??

Consider the following technique: Uke attacks with yokomen uchi. You respond by stepping straight in, extending your left hand to intercept uke's strike (who attacked right-handed, BTW) and simultaneously extend your right arm and connect with uke's chin, guiding his head backwards and taking his balance. This is shomen-ate, the first technique of Ju Nana Hon Kata in Tomiki Aikido.

Later, another uke steps out from a doorway and does the same yokomen attack, only this time augmented by a blunt object. You perform the technique as described above, only instead of putting your palm to uke's chin, you punch him in the throat, or use nukite to uke's throat. Uke chokes to death, or at the very least makes horrible gagging noises.

This version of shomen-ate is illustrated in Saotome sensei's book on Aikido, although I don't believe he calls it that.

There are other possibilities.

Charles Yeomans

Subject: Re: techniques that can kill??

I would like to draw your attention to O Sensei's book "Budo" the reproduction of Budo Renshu. Most of the techniques demonstrate O Sensei performing Atemi to various parts of the body, then performing the technique. If you can knock out your opponenent with a strike to vital points, and then throw them - - - it becomes very dangerous. There is no way to take Ukemi (opps) if you are knocked out.

O Sensei said someting like "Aikido is 99% Atemi", and you may have gussed I'll throw this in. Vital Points (Kyusho) are listed and described in Japanese books not in English Aikido books.

Vital point strikes can numb various parts of the body, knock them out, or kill them.

Rick Clark

Subject: Re: techniques that can kill??

One simple answer to your question could be Shihonage. When you were first taught backward ukemi, weren't you told to keep your chin tucked in so that your head doesn't hit the mat? Well, imagine being thrown hard backwards from shihonage, but having not had the pleasure of being told how to take ukemi!! Even techniques such as Ikkyo have strong downward cutting motions which are designed to unbalance (and control) the attacker. One doesn't *have* to stop the downward cutting motion just at the "controlling point"... you could still bring the attacker's head down onto the floor. Added to these two simplistic examples is the proper and effective use of atemi (striking vital areas), Shimewaza (strangulation techniques) etc etc.

Julian

Subject: Re: techniques that can kill??

Can't all Aikido waza be potentially deadly? It all depends on what one looks for. Julian mentions two really good examples. I think irimi nage is from Daito ryu isn't it? There are some real nasty variations to that technique (i.e. shime waza, proper atemi to the floating ribs, sweeps, etc.). I mean ikkyo can go straight to hiji shime, nikkyo can break the wrist as can kote gaeshi, and even an immobilization like sankyo can be potentially very painful (anyone read Shioda Sensei's "Dynamic Aikido?"). I think that the most useful outside studies I have done is to purchase a karate book by Nishiyama (bound by what looks like a judogi no less!) at a used book store and also to look at atemi charts from jiu-jitsu. So, I personally think that any technique can be as deadly as the nage wishes it to be. Even experienced ukes can be really screwed if techniques are done fast enough and hard enough. Lucky us Aikido types are into that peace and harmony stuff right? Right? We are, aren't we? :-)

Dave